Gerrymandersplaining
My Interview with Will Stancil of Twitter and for MN House 61A
11:18 AM
Moira O’Shea: Okay, so, um- I first learned about you through your, uh, gerry-
Will Stancil: Oh hold on one second-
Moira: Oh, sorry?
Will: One second.
Moira: Okay.
[Ten seconds pass]
Will: Uhhh, I’m sorry- is there any way we could do this this afternoon? My boss is like, uh, keeps asking me for things and I have- so this is like-
Moira: No that’s totally fine. What, um- what time works?
Will: Uh, what time works for you?
Moira: Um- I am free after- I think 2?
Will: Okay.
Moira: Yeah I’m free from 2-4:30.
Will: Okay, um, yeah, well then why don’t you- why don’t you call me at, uh, you’re Eastern Time, so call me- why don’t you call me at 3?
Moira: Okay, perfect.
Will: Sorry about this-
Moira: No, it’s totally fine.
Will: My boss keeps running around like Do this Do this and I don’t wanna be like No I’m on the phone.
M: No that’s real. Okay, I’ll talk to you later.
W: Alright! Bye.
M: Bye.
[Dial tone]
3:01 PM
M: Okay, ready?
W: Yep, let’s do it.
M: Okay. You describe yourself as a practical progressive.
W: Mhm.
M: Can you elaborate on what that means?
W: Yeah, sure. I am, um, I am a progressive, absolutely- um, I would say that, uh, uh I also care about how things get done, um, you know obviously just believing an outcome would be good- doesn’t mean it’s going to happen-
M: Mhm.
W: Uh, immediately in real life. And so you really need to think about, um, you know- uh, unpack sorta complicated policy problems and think about your pathway A B C- how you’re going to get to a better outcome in a better world, and, um, I think sometimes that’s missing from progressive politics-
M: Sure, definitely.
W: So.
M: Um, yeah, I- so, I initially became aware of you through your gerrymandering tweet ab- like I think it was in-
W: [laughs]
M: [laughs] Yeah back in March, um- I think you said you would gerrymander the living daylights out of Minnesota-
W: [laughs] Absolutely.
M: Would you classify that as something that is practical progressive?
W: Haha, yeah, for sure- I mean, they do it to us-
M: [laughs]
W: So I think- I think that uh, uh you know, one thing is that on these procedural things a lot of the times the GOP just goes ahead and does it, and we’re kinda like “Oh no, what if people think badly about us?”
M: Yeah.
W: And it’s like, no one’s paying that close attention-
M: Yeah.
W: And also, if you want the GOP to stop, the best way’s to do it to them-
M: Exactly.
W: Until they decide that, wow it’s not worth it- maybe we should deescalate.
M: Yeah.
W: You know, I mean, it’s the classic prisoner’s dilemma thing-
M: Mhm.
W: If one side’s cooperating, and the other side’s not cooperating, guess who’s gonna lose?
M: Yeah.
W: It’s the guy who’s cooperating.
M: Exactly.
W: So you don’t- both sides need to defect, to not cooperate, to play hardball until everyone goes “Okay, this has actually gone too far, you know, let’s take it down a notch.”
M: Yeah.
W: And so to me not only is this, like, you know, totally possible, but it’s actually the on- it is the correct game theory-
M: Yeah.
W: Like, mathematical solution to these problems.
M: Yeah- were you a poli sci major?
W: No.
M: Okay, what was your major in undergrad? I was not able to find that online. [laughs]
W: History.
M: History! Okay, okay, interesting.
W: Yep. [laughs]
M: Okay, so- yeah, okay- wanted to talk about your childhood a little bit. Can you tell me about- so I also grew up in a very, very Red area-
W: Uh-huh.
M: How has that informed your politics now?
W: A few things- I mean, first of all, I think there’s kind of this- there’s this um, um sort of you know, rose-colored uh, uh view of like rural or Red America that you’ll sometimes see where people go “Oh, no- people are just economically anxious-
M: Mhm.
W: “They’re just- you feel so- you know they- they just feel forgotten” and I’m like no, I know these people- like, they’re not saints.
M: [laughs] No, they’re mean. Yeah.
W: A lot of them- a lot of them are just kind of, you know, a lot of people who are in, you know, places- they’re just kinda racist [laughs] or they’re kinda- or they’re not that smart or you know, whatever-
M: Yeah.
W: I mean, not to say I don’t have any respect for them- you know, I grew up with a lot of people I respect and I knew who are awesome and totally capable, and I think this also comes with the territory. You know people that are not entirely their politics-
M: Yeah.
W: You know people who grew up in this environment and they learned- may have learned you should just be a Republican, so they’re a Republican. So, I- you know, I know lots of people who are, you know, like, Conservatives, so I’m just like, whatever man, you’re a Conservative, fine.
M: Mhm.
W: But, like- but like, you don’t have that- you don’t have that sort of distorted view of them as like, The Noble Savage, you’re just like, you know-
M: Yeah.
W: I mean, you’re a Conservative, and also sometimes- many of you can be total scumbags-
M: Yeah.
W: And I am totally capable of identifying and saying that, and I’m not shy about it.
M: Yeah.
W: Um, and I think- and I think that, you know, people that spend their entire life in sort of Blue enclaves kind of lack that ability. They feel very- they feel very self conscious about it.
M: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, so, is there a moment you can identify as being- like, when did you decide to run for office? Was this something you had thought about for a while, or? Yeah, just kinda take me through that.
W: A couple years, maybe.
M: Okay.
W: I sorta started thinking about it during a race in my House district- or it was my City Council race, but basically it’s very- very closely matches my House district-
M: Mhm.
W: Um, and uh, you know the people that jumped in- I mean, I knew one of them- I work with her a little bit, and then the other guy, um, you know, I know him around a little bit- And I thought these are just ordinary people, you know-
M: Yeah.
W: These are, I mean, not to say that I don’t- you know, I mean, they’re smart and they’re hardworking, but, you know, they weren’t, like-
M: Gods, yeah.
W: You know, they were people that I- just from the community, and I thought, well, if they can do it, maybe I can do it-
M: Mhm.
W: And I- and I thought maybe if this seat comes open I’ll run for it cause there was, I thought maybe the guy, incumbent might retire, and then he did retire very abruptly, so-
M: Okay.
W: I had to sort of just make a, you know, [laughs] there was definitely a moment where I called my friend and I said I don’t- I can’t do it, and she yelled at me-
M: [laughs]
W: And so then I was like okay, okay I’m sorry [laughs] I’ll do it.
M: Yeah, one of my questions was actually gonna be, um, I was wondering if you were still working through this, but that was answered this morning. [laughs] How- what is- what, uh- yeah, how busy are you? What is your life like right now?
W: Oh my god I’m so busy.
M: [laughs]
W: Um, I’m so busy. I, you know, so I go to work, and then I work and I come home and I go out and knock doors-
M: Yeah, oh my god.
W: I work on the weekends, I work whenever, I have a schedule, you know, if there’s any community event, I try to go to it. Um, I got- and if I have any call time in between- my campaign people want me to call and do fundraising-
M: Mhm.
W: Plus, you know, work has been crushing this last week- I have so much to do so it’s- it’s been horrible. I, like, went, like, two days, basically, without sleeping-
M: Jesus-
W: And I was just hitting the wall; I was not in a good state.
M: Yeah.
W: And then, you know, if there’s any leftover time I try- this morning, I went out for a run just so I don’t lose my mind-
M: Yeah.
W: Try and get some exercise in, so-
M: Yeah, are you um-
W: My campaign manager yelled at me- [laughs]
M: [laughs]
W: She yells at me, very frequently, um, she’s like “No dates!”
M: [laughs]
W: “You can’t date!” And I’m like, uh, well, there’s this one person. And she’s like “You can’t! She’s not! You’re gone!” [laughs]
M: [laughs] That’s funny, I mean she’s probably, she’s got a good point, but-
W: No, she’s totally correct, totally correct, to be clear, but, like, uh-
M: But that’s tough.
W: It’s certainly, uh, uh- you know, it’s like, that’s- that’s where we are.
M: Yeah, no that makes sense. Um, okay, running- I saw that you were potentially running a marathon- are you doing that?
W: Yeah, I’m on the fence about that-
M: [laughs]
W: I kinda- I know it’s insane-
M: Okay.
W: But, I- I trained for it last year, and then it got cancelled for heat.
M: Okay.
W: So I wanna do it cause I feel like I never did it.
M: Yeah, yeah, so you’ve never done one, correct?
W: Getting ready for one is no minor thing, and I’m not- I’m not naturally a runner- I’m, I’m a big- you know, I kind of clump around.
M: Sure.
W: I would say I’m- I’m naturally built for strength- [laughs]
M: [laughs] Okay.
W: Is sort of a charitable way of putting it, and uh, uh, so it’s- so it’s very difficult and unfun for me, but I’m also just sort of like I never did it- I wanna do it.
M: Yeah.
W: So, I’m sort of technically on the training trajectory- at some point I imagine it’ll just become impossible-
M: [laughs]
W: But like that’s also how I felt last year- I was like oh I’m just- I’m not gonna stop going cause I never did. So who knows what’ll happen?
M: Yeah, do you have, like, a time goal or are you just hoping to finish?
W: Oh, god no.
M: [laughs]
W: [laughs] You know, I wanna run the whole thing-
M: Yeah.
W: That’s the main goal. I just wanna run it-
M: Yeah.
W: I don’t wanna- but that’s it. [laughs]
M: Yeah, that’s fair. Okay, cool. Um, okay so, your, uh, New York Mag profile came out this morning-
W: Mhm.
M: Talking a lot about Twitter. Um, I wanted to ask you- do you have an estimate of how much time you spend on there daily?
W: Uh, no, not really. I mean, it’s not as much as people think.
M: Okay.
W: You know, cause I talk about the same stuff over and over-
M: Yeah.
W: Um, and I don’t follow, like, ten thousand people, and I don’t- I don’t follow all the drama at all-
M: Yeah.
W: I have no idea what’s going on with, like, Twitter drama. I mean, people are always talking- comparing me to this person, or saying this person, and I’m like I don’t know who this is.
M: [laughs]
W: I forget who it was- Brianna Wu, Destiny- I’m like, who are these people- like, these weird names- um, so, I- I, you know, it’s probably more than I should, but it’s not like, you know- it’s not like, it’s not like six hours a day-
M: Sure.
W: I mean, it’s like- it’s like, you know, uh, probably, I mean, it often- you know, you have- you have it, like, a monitor open with your browser-
M: Yeah.
W: So you just keep looking every few minutes-
M: Yeah, yeah.
W: So.
M: Does your um- I don’t know, how does your campaign manager feel about your Twitter?
W: Uh, there’s a little section on our campaign plan that says “Social Media”, and it says “Twitter: Let Will be Will”.
M: [laughs]
W: If you sort of understand, he says- he says, “Will you’re the only person that can- you’re the only person that can raise money off of Twitter that I’ve ever wor- seen running at this level. Um, which is great. Uh, you know, don’t say anything stupid and blow yourself up. But otherwise, like, I don’t understand why people follow you, so.”
M: [laughs] That’s funny.
W: So I guess just keep doing what you’re doing.
M: Alright.
W: It doesn’t matter- no one in the district knows about it, or cares very much-
M: Okay.
W: I mean, the most important thing is I not say stupid stuff about Minnesota politics or [inaudible] about Minnesota politics.
M: Okay.
W: I think, you know, probably as the campaign goes on, I’ll need to tweet less just cause I’ll be busy, and frankly, it’s just, you know, like, you just- you don’t want your exposure to be all through that-
M: Yeah.
W: But, it’s ultimately- I’ve talked to a very small number of people who have any idea this even exists.
M: Okay. [laughs] That’s funny. Um, do you- so, I guess, assuming that you are elected-
W: Mhm.
M: Do you expect that your Twitter usage would change?
W: Yeah, probably would have to, you know.
M: Yeah.
W: People- people would watch it, but, you know, I don’t know- who knows. It’s sort of play it by ear, you know.
M: Yeah.
W: I mean, obviously, I mean my- the way I use it has always been sort of, sort of- you know, I sort of say what I think. I try to be honest; I try not to be a jerk. I don’t-
M: Yeah.
W: You know, I try not to engage in, you know, lurid insults or name-calling, so I won’t have to avoid that, but- but, you know, I mean, it’s like- well, you sort of say something, you see what happens. I mean, I guess if I say, if there’s a controversy- if I cause a controversy or something, then maybe I’ll dial it back-
M: Mhm.
W: If people seem to be like Okay, it’s kinda nice that you can- you get a little bit of unfiltered stuff, then maybe I’ll just tweet some, but I- I, you know, I, you know, the first priority’s one hundred percent the job and the district-
M: Yeah.
W: Not that.
M: Yeah, yeah, I mean personally, I- it’s refreshing. I- I, um, yeah I don’t know. People are very cagey on social media now.
W: Yeah, some people say that; some people say “Are you a crazy person?”
M: [laughs]
W: [laughs] So, so, you know, there’s- there’s ups and downs. [laughs]
M: Yeah, no, it’s cool. Um, do you ever- I don’t know- I mean, people do come after you, though, a bit on there.
W: Yeah.
M: Do you- I don’t know, is that tough? How- how do you handle that?
W: It has- there have been times when it is. Um, it’s the volume more than anything. Uh, with that said it’s honestly helped me some, because you have to develop a little bit of thick skin for it.
M: Yeah.
W: You have to develop- you know, you have to understand- the worst ones have honestly been [sniffs] um, just because I- like, I hate them so much- have been the very far right people.
M: Mhm.
W: Um, you know, just- I get so mad.
M: Yeah. [laughs]
W: I just can’t stand them as human beings.
M: Yeah.
W: And there’s nothing I can do about it, you know. There’s just thousands and thousands of em.
M: Yeah, yeah.
W: Um, but, um, but- no, I mean, it’s just sorta- you just, you develop- you develop a little bit of a thick skin for it. You say, you know, these people don’t control me, they don’t- you know, people- just because someone else believes something about you doesn’t mean it’s true, you know.
M: Yeah.
W: Just basic, like sort of, like, middle school security stuff-
M: Mhm.
W: But it’s amazing how many people seem to not have ever developed that.
M: Yeah. Or you forget about it, yeah.
W: And so (un)fortunately you really get good at that. And, you know, it helps, you know, people go- it helps, like, when I’m talking doors to people and someone says something you don’t expect- or sometimes, you know, people are rude-
M: Yeah.
W: And you go- you sort of the need to composure to say “Okay!” and just, like, let it kinda roll off of you, so.
M: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, so I know that you have praised Biden’s, uh, economy quite a lot.
W: Mhm.
M: Were you happy to see him get the Democratic nomination?
W: Sorry, say that again?
M: Were you happy to see him get the Democratic nomination? I mean, I know it was expected, you know, but-
W: Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly I was- I’ve been worried about his age for a long time-
M: Yeah.
W: Still am. Um, but I kinda- I think there was a point, you know, probably in the last year or so where it was just like there’s no one else- you know, it’s too late-
M: Yeah.
W: To kinda run anyone against him. None of the good candidates seem interested, you know, like you don’t wanna vote for RFK or whoever [laughs]
M: Yeah. [laughs]
W: Um, and so, you know- uh, uh, uh what’s the guy I’m- like, Dean Phillips-
M: Mhm.
W: You know, so- so like, it was just sort of like- I was kind of like “Okay! Well he’s our guy”. Honestly, I think he’s done a good job on a lot of policy stuff that has went, like, understated-
M: Yeah.
W: Um, you know, obviously I don’t agree with one hundred percent of what he’s done, and I don’t always agree with his, his sort of- you know, personal take on things-
M: Mhm.
W: But it’s just, you know, like we- he- there’s never gonna be a politician-
M: No. [laughs]
W: That I think this is one hundred percent, you know, everything I want.
M: Yeah.
W: Maybe Elizabeth Warren. I loved her.
M: [laughs]
W: And she lost pretty bad. So. So, so, um-
M: Why did you like her so much?
W: Hm?
M: Why did you like her so much?
W: I thought she was- I though she was smart.
M: Okay.
W: I thought she was progressive. I like- I liked that she kinda had the- sort of the progressive values but more of a practical, like, you know-
M: Yeah.
W: Like-
M: Definitely.
W: Careful way of thinking through policy problems. Very much- and I also liked her determination to get stuff done- that she would, she would sort of- she had a tendency to sort of, um, you know, say here’s a problem. What levers do we have to fix it?
M: Mhm.
W: And sort of go through them one at a time. Which is sort of how I’d like to conduct myself politically.
M: Yeah. Yeah, cool. Okay, so, I’m twenty-five-
W: Mhm.
M: Like right on the verge of Gen Z. Um, I know that I-
W: Wait, are you- you’re- I thought Gen Z was older than that.
M: Older than that? No, I-
W: What’s the- what’s the sort of-
M: I think the cutoff is, like, ‘97/’98, um-
W: Really? Okay.
M: And I’m ‘98, yeah. Um, no my sister is twenty-two and she’s always like “You’re not Gen Z” and I’m like “Well, I’m not a millennial”. [laughs]
W: [laughs] Gen Z.
M: Yeah. [laughs]
W: Twenty-five- I like, I’m- at this point, I don’t- you guys seem like a different species to me a little bit. [laughs]
M: [laughs] I know. I know, I know, yeah.
W: [laughs] No offense.
M: No, that’s real. Um, but, I know, like, a lot of- I mean, online, in person, my friends- a lot of people: very disillusioned; don’t really wanna vote.
W: Right.
M: What would you say to those people about voting this year?
W: Honestly, if you don’t vote- I mean, I know it’s a cliché, but if you don’t vote, you don’t matter.
M: Uh-huh.
W: Um, that you’re never going to get exactly what you want, but it’s- this is, this is, you know- things are rarely as bad as they seem when you’re surrounded by, you know, I mean- when it feels the worst. Um, um, you know, if you can go read- go read people from the sixties when there were similar- you know, similar disillusionment, and what a lot of people said is that well, you know, the world just kind of bailed in. And I remember, I remember I was at a thing with, uh, Tom Hayden, who was one of the people in Chicago in ‘68. Um, and, and he said: I, you know, it really felt like we were on the brink of the world collapsing-
M: Mhm.
W: And then it just didn’t.
M: Yeah.
W: You know, and, and, you know- things just kinda kept going, and it’s like yeah, and that’s how, you know-
M: How it goes.
W: Things probably- things just keep going, probably. Most likely, I would think.
M: Yeah. [laughs]
W: And, um- and so you really need, um, [sniffs] you know, um, this sort of understand- you know, understand- and just understand that, you know, that there- that this is, you know, I mean, I’m thirty-eight; I’m not super old, but I’m older than that.
M: Mhm.
W: And I’ve voted in a lot of elections. There’s more elections coming, you know.
M: Yeah.
W: I mean, 2004- my first election I voted in, uh, George W. Bush-
M: Mm.
W: Who, believe it or not, at the time seemed like the worst president we’d ever have-
M: [laughs]
W: Won, and it was devastating.
M: Yeah.
W: And I thought, ah this country’s doomed, and then four years later we elect Barack Obama.
M: Yeah.
W: And it’s, like, inspiring and great. But then of course Barack Obama turns out not to be the savior-
M: Yeah.
W: Of, you know, the universe, and, you know, we get back to Trump, and it’s just kind of like, yeah, it turns out you never really reach the end. Someone said something yesterday on Twitter that I thought was really smart, which was that, he said: there’s going to be politics for the rest of your life.
M: Mhm.
W: And it’s true. There’s always going to be politics. It’s always gonna keep happening. You’re never- you’re never gonna win; you’re never gonna fully lose, you know, hopefully.
M: Yeah.
W: Um, and so- and so, just, you gotta kinda keep going and sorta plan for next time.
M: Yeah.
W: And I know- I know- I mean having been a person, you know, a young person who was really disillusioned and kind of checked out of politics after Bush won his second election-
M: Mhm.
W: For a little- for a few years, I get it, but it’s just, like, you just sorta have to develop that sort of, uh mental, um, sort of fortitude around it.
M: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, one last question: could you sum up- I guess both personally and in what you- or I guess, yeah- what’s your end goal politically? Like, what would you love to see happen from here?
W: From here? Like, in terms of, for me? Or for- for like, policy?
M: Both, I guess [laughs] if that’s okay.
W: Okay. [laughs] Yeah, so, so for policy- I mean, this is all stuff on my website: I wanna make Minneapolis thrive, I wanna decarbonize, I’m a big civil rights guy. Um, I really want to have the public schools- pillars and pillars of the community like they used to be. Um, I’d really like to sort of, frankly, [laughs] address the non-profit industrial complex.
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: I mean- you know, you know, stronger unions. I mean, you know, the pr- you know, better pay. You know, all the good progressive stuff.
M: Mhm.
W: Um, for me personally, I mean literally just, just uh, do- to help accomplish that stuff. I mean-
M: Yeah.
W: I’m not running because I have higher ambitions for-
M: Mhm.
W: You know, to be governor or something like that. I just, like, like, I’m interested in this stuff, and the state legislature’s the place where this stuff is decided.
M: Yeah.
W: Um, you know, it’s just- so, so, this is as far as I’m- you know, the way you build influence in the legislature is you- you’re there for a while.
M: Yeah.
W: So my intention’s to go there and just sort of be there and do my job.
M: Yeah. Totally. Yeah, okay, awesome. Thank you so much.
W: No problem.
M: Um, I’m really just gonna do-
W: Good questions. I was- I really appreciate them.
M: Oh, thanks!
W: Honestly, honestly- I like- um, you know, I like that they were more substantive sometimes than people who ask about Twitter and stuff.
M: [laughs]
W: And it’s like, you know, there’s other stuff to talk about.
M: Yeah, of course! Oh my god, thanks- that’s really nice. Um, I will send you- um, I’m really just gonna do, like, the same thing I did with the last one- just do the transcript of what we talked about. Um, I’ll send it to you before-
W: The- the last one being-
M: John Hinckley. [laughs]
W: Yeah, so, one thing I’d say- recommend as a- a young journalist-
M: Yeah.
W: When you call to tell someone you wanna interview them, especially if they’re a politician, don’t say I also interviewed John Hinckley.
M: [laughs]
W: [laughs] Like, no offense, but I’m like [inaudible] the guy who shot the president, you know. [laughs]
M: No no no that’s totally fine. [laughs] I was just like- literally it was my first interview ever, and I was like Okay I wanna show that I have, like, some- I’m not just like a random person.
W: I can totally understand where it’s coming from. I would just say, you know, for future reference say “I do interviews”.
M: [laughs]
W: Like, that’s often- that’ll be good enough, people- you know, people- especially, like, I like talking to people who are sort of just starting out-
M: Yeah.
W: Because, you know, I love journalism and I wanna help journalists- I wanna help em out, but like [laughs]
M: [laughs]
W: [inaudible] John Hinckley, and I’m like oh god.
M: [laughs] Well, I’m glad you still talked to me despite that. I really appreciate it. Um, I hope you have a great rest of your day. Yeah, thank you so much.
W: Yeah, absolutely. Good luck!
M: Thanks! You too. Bye.
W: Bye.
Will is running to represent District 61A in the Minnesota House of Representatives
You can learn more about his campaign here, and you can follow him on Twitter here.
(I follow him on Twitter, and if I lived in Minneapolis, I would def be voting for him as well)